The Vilification of the Dastardly Distorters

I really have no time this week but I can tell when a blog post is just going to write itself, and this one will!

First off, I really thought Fr. James Martin, SJ was doing a stellar job managing his own martyr complex.  I mean, seriously, he really had no need for help on this front.  He’s got that locked up.  Now, maybe Bishop McElroy is sad everyone’s pretty much ignoring him, except those who can’t.  (Sorry, San Diego faithful!)  This was a probably a frantic attention grab.  “Look at me!  I’m over here and I’m a cool Catholic too!”

That said, it’s been a really bad few weeks for Fr. Martin.  Maybe the troops are just trying to re-inflate his ego after Cardinal Sarah, revoked invitations here and here, a smack-down of the “canonical approval” of his book idea– and who could forget his own misstep at Fordham where the entire panel, including him, admitted he wasn’t being candid because being a priest and Jesuit precluded him from being so.  (How stupid I felt after all of these years thinking that’s what a priest/Jesuit was supposed to do!)

Here’s Bishop McElroy’s public shaming of the meanies: 

Father James Martin is a distinguished Jesuit author who has spent his life building bridges within the Catholic Church and between the church and the wider world.

When did “notorious” and “distinguished” become synonymous?  And, wait!  “Building bridges WITHIN the Catholic Church?!?!”  I can only remotely see that being said if “building” includes a complete demolition of the Church first.

He has been particularly effective in bringing the Gospel message to the millennial generation.

Oh, he’s bringing a message to the millennial generation, alright, but it’s not quite from the Gospels unless we’re going with some sort of Gnostic Gospel.

 When we survey the vast gulf that exists between young adults and the church in the United States, it is clear that there could be no more compelling missionary outreach for the future of Catholicism than the terrain that Father Martin has passionately and eloquently pursued over the past two decades. There are few evangelizers who have engaged that terrain with more heart and skill and devotion.

I think I must have missed Fr. James Martin, SJ becoming a millennial rockstar who’s packing the churches full of millennials.  Please.  Can we be just a little honest here?  Fr. Martin, SJ reaches those who believe in an active homosexual lifestyle and those who sympathize with active homosexual lifestyles.  Now, apparently, Bishop McElroy thinks that all or most millennials are concerned with the Catholic Church and her attitude toward homosexuality.  Yeah, not so much.  Most are just worried about their lifestyle choices being accepted by whoever.  To say that millennials at large are screaming like Beatles fans over Fr. Martin, SJ is to be suffering from SJW (social justice warrior, for those not up with the current shorthand) delusions of grandeur. How about you walk up to the nearest millennial and ask them if they even know who Fr. James Martin, SJ is? 

Last year Father Martin undertook a particularly perilous project in this work of evangelization: building bridges between the church and the L.G.B.T. community in the United States. He entered it knowing that the theological issues pertaining to homosexuality constituted perhaps the most volatile element of ecclesial life in U.S. culture.

And here’s where I think Bishop McElroy is totally out of touch.  He actually thinks that this is the be all and end of all of Catholic life.  “If only we could span this active homosexual/Church doctrine divide with a bridge, our churches would be full again!”   Sorry.  You want to see THE “most volatile element of ecclesial life in the U.S. culture?”  Try birth control. Try IVF.  Try cohabitating.  Try sex outside of marriage.   Take your pick.  Bishop McElroy, Fr. Martin, and their little club don’t realize that the rest of the Church is focused on other things.

It was this very volatility that spurred Father Martin to write his new book Building a Bridge: How the Catholic Church and the L.G.B.T. Community Can Enter into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion and Sensitivity. Using a methodology that is fully consonant with Catholic teaching, employing Scripture, the rich pastoral heritage of the church and an unadulterated realism that makes clear both the difficulty and the imperative for establishing deeper dialogue, Father Martin opens a door for proclaiming that Jesus Christ and his church seek to embrace fully and immediately men and women in the L.G.B.T. community.

Wow!  I thought that the Church’s teaching was constant with Catholic teaching but, hey, whatever.  Why is it that Fr. Martin, SJ feels the need to open a door for any of us?  Who are all of these people saying anything different than “Jesus Christ and his church seek to embrace fully and immediately men and women in the L.G.B.T. community?”  Please don’t fall for the “If I say it enough it’ll be true!” tactic of Martin, Cupich, McElroy, and club.  They know quite well we’re begging those suffering from SSA to embrace the Church because we love them  In short, while we tell them the Church loves them, we also tell them what the Church teaches and how the Church has helped us to struggle with our own sins.  Fr. Martin and fan club don’t want that to get out, so they’ll try to convince as many others as they can to join in the martyr complex.

Building a Bridge is a serious book, and any such work invites substantive criticism and dialogue.

If I had been drinking, my keyboard would be toast.  How did he type that one with a straight face?  I believe Cardinal Sarah just gave you plenty of substantive criticism and dialogue, along with MANY others.  It apparently fell on rather deaf ears so let me just remind you, Bishop McElroy: http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/09/01/cardinal-sarah-critiques-fr-james-martin-on-homosexuality/

This is particularly true with a complex subject like the relationship of the L.G.B.T. community and the church. Many analyses of Father Martin’s arguments have pointed to important problems that do not have easy answers and to the reality that dialogue must always proceed both in respect and in truth.

Wouldn’t this be quite similar with any group struggling with sin?  Hey, here’s an idea: how about some generic homilies on overcoming temptation and sin?  Oh wait.  I think you’d actually have to use the words temptation, sin, struggle, etc. and those words are so judge-y.  Silly me.

But alongside this legitimate and substantive criticism of Father Martin’s book, there has arisen both in Catholic journals and on social media a campaign to vilify Father Martin, to distort his work, to label him heterodox, to assassinate his personal character and to annihilate both the ideas and the dialogue that he has initiated.

How can you distort something that’s already distorted?  That was on Fr. Martin.  While there are some people out there with evil intent, there are many out there with VERY just anger!  We have friends who suffer.  We have friends whose kids suffer, etc.  We don’t live in the SJW ivory tower.  We live in the real world.  We get to live with the very real effects of a world that gives up its struggle against sin.  So, please, drop the proxy martyr complex.  And, by the way, Fr. Martin assassinated his character a long time ago.

This campaign of distortion must be challenged and exposed for what it is—not primarily for Father Martin’s sake but because this cancer of vilification is seeping into the institutional life of the church. 

I can hear the violins now.  Let’s break out a little honest, shall we?  The cancer in the Church is not those of us angry with sin, it’s those who placate sin.  That kind of means you, Bishop McElroy.  You speak of distortion but you don’t even bother to offer evidence.  So who is really the one distorting what’s going on here?  Is it you or, say, Cardinal Sarah? Let me guess.  Your position as a priest and bishop limits you to ambiguous accusations, right?

Already, several major institutions have canceled Father Martin as a speaker. Faced with intense external pressures, these institutions have bought peace, but in doing so they have acceded to and reinforced a tactic and objectives that are deeply injurious to Catholic culture in the United States and to the church’s pastoral care for members of the L.G.B.T. communities.

Bravo “major institutions!”  Your stance for clear, concise Catholic teaching in the case of Fr. Martin is laudable!  Your aid to those of us who struggle with sin, and in this case particularly those struggling with same-sex attraction, is appreciated.  Go Catholics!

The concerted attack on Father Martin’s work has been driven by three impulses: homophobia, a distortion of fundamental Catholic moral theology and a veiled attack on Pope Francis and his campaign against judgmentalism in the church.

Oh, ho!  Not good enough to be a proxy martyr for Fr. Martin, now it’s Pope Francis?  And judgmentalism?  Uh, hello!  Judge away, as far as sin goes, people!   Here’s a nice little section of the catechism on judgement.  Not shockingly, it’s in the conscience section and, also not shockingly, Bishop McElroy and pals seem to hope to keep you hopelessly in the dark to its existence with their nice little vilification (a word Bishop McElroy is fond of) of judging.

1795 “Conscience is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary.  There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths” (GS 16).

1796 Conscience is a judgment of reason by which the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act.

1797 For the man who has committed evil, the verdict of his conscience remains a pledge of conversion and of hope.

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful.  It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator.  Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

1799 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments.  Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

1802 The Word of God is a light for our path.  We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice.  This is how moral conscience is formed.

 

The attacks on Building a Bridge tap into long-standing bigotry within the church and U.S. culture against members of the L.G.B.T. community.

Or it’s a load of hooey.  I vote that.

The persons launching these attacks portray the reconciliation of the church and the L.G.B.T. community not as a worthy goal but as a grave cultural, religious and familial threat. Gay sexual activity is seen not as one sin among others but as uniquely debased to the point that L.G.B.T. persons are to be effectively excluded from the family of the church. Pejorative language and labels are deployed regularly and strategically. The complex issues of sexual orientation and its discernment in the life of the individual are dismissed and ridiculed.

 Prove your case, Bishop McElroy, and stop with all of the ambiguous accusations.  I realize it’s just easier to say “There’s a boogeyman under your bed!” but wouldn’t it be nice to treat people like they have half a brain?

Now, Bishop, I know you’re hoping that people are just going to take your word for it but I am going to actually put the link to the teaching: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Yeah, I know many have seen this before but I see a whole lot of other “offenses” against chastity listed there.  I see some for married folk, single folk, and same-sex attracted folk.  What I always find a bit ironic is that, while you seem to think same-sex attracted people deserves special treatment when it comes to their sins, you also claim offense that the Church has a special section right before the special section for married folks.    Also, did anyone see the part of Church teaching which dismisses or ridicules the complex situation of sexual orientation?  Yeah, me neither.

The coordinated attack on Building a Bridge must be a wake-up call for the Catholic community to look inward and purge itself of bigotry against the L.G.B.T. community. If we do not, we will build a gulf between the church and L.G.B.T. men and women and their families. Even more important, we will build an increasing gulf between the church and our God.

Well, that IS funny.  I so wish we could have a coordinated attack against anyone leading those suffering from SSA into sin but, sadly, we have a lot of fronts we’re fighting. Wait!  Did I just not get the call?  Come on guys!  I know I’m small time but could you just clue me in everyone once in a while????

  The second corrosive impulse of the campaign against Building a Bridge flows from a distortion of Catholic moral theology.

Oh my.  He is a bit paranoid, no?  Honestly, Bishop, there is no campaign. There’s just a whole lot of us who think the book stinks and will further lead people to ditch the struggle in hope that Truth conforms to their will.  No big conspiracy, although I’m totally going to be bummed if I found out there is one and nobody let me in on the secret handshake!

I think this is the third time or so I’m going to call you on your accusation, Bishop.  I mean, I, as well as many others, have happily quoted Fr. Martin, SJ as our evidence time and again.  Might you do the same in regards to the grand conspirators?

The goal of the Catholic moral life is to pattern our lives after that of Jesus Christ. We must model our interior and exterior selves on the virtues of faith, love, hope, mercy, compassion, integrity, sacrifice, prayerfulness, humility, prudence and more. One of these virtues is chastity. Chastity is a very important virtue of the Christian moral life. The disciple is obligated to confine genital sexual activity to marriage.

But chastity is not the central virtue in the Christian moral life. Our central call is to love the Lord our God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Many times, our discussions in the life of the church suggest that chastity has a singularly powerful role in determining our moral character or our relationship with God. It does not.

What the what???  Nice try, Bishop McElroy.  Are you purposely trying to confuse people?  Why are you mixing commandments and virtues?  Chastity falls under the CARDINAL virtue of temperance.  Again – READ. THE. CATECHISM.  Do not take anything at face value.  I will happily link to avoid “distortion:” http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

By the way, if you gander at this link, you will find chastity a vocation to all.  Meh. Small potatoes.  (Sarcasm alert!)

Now, what is a Cardinal Virtue, you might ask (or at least Bishop McElroy should)?  “The four principal virtues upon which the rest of the moral virtues turn or are hinged. http://www.newadvent.com/cathen/03343a.htm

No biggie.  Oh, by the way again, it’s mighty hard to achieve the commandments of Christ you so confusingly stated without these virtues.  But yeah, chastity isn’t central at all.  It’s just a little itty-bitty footnote under the Cardinal Virtue of temperance.

This distortion of our faith cripples many of our discussions of sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular.

Oh, I totally agree on this.  Too bad you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

The overwhelming prism through which we should look at our moral lives is that we are all called to live out the virtues of Christ; we all succeed magnificently at some and fail at others. Those who emphasize the incompatibility of gay men or lesbian women living meaningfully within the church are ignoring the multidimensional nature of the Christian life of virtue or the sinfulness of us all or both.

OOOhhhh!  This is actually kind of a good analogy you stumbled upon, Bishop McElroy.  The geeky, science-loving girl is going to point out that when you look through a prism, it refracts or distorts!  Maybe that’s your problem.  Get a good pair of glasses and stop looking through prisms!  You’re the one who supposedly hates distortions.

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52 thoughts on “The Vilification of the Dastardly Distorters

  1. You would think.that the Cal. Bishop’s of all people would have learned a expensive and hard lesson of the dangers of homosexual deviants in the clergy. . .. Brom ironically if San Diego was a accused Homosexual Rapist. He and his successors paid out a Whopping 270 Million Dollars to victims of his and others abuse of young men by Homosexual Rapist cino clergy in S. D including B. Brom…. … Then there is the infamous R. Mahoney of now bankrupt Stockton CA diocese and later A archbishop out of L. A.. He Mahoney paid out a Staggering SIX hundred million dollars for similar homosexual abuse There …. North Cal bishops paid out another two hundred million dollars for the same infamy there. …. Over one BILLION dollars just in California. Are these bishops McElroy ,Van ,Baron Ochoa, McGrath and Gomez oblivious to the past. Or are they homosexual and just Plain stupid to ignore the dangers of devisnt sodomite bishops and clergy in California itself for decades .

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  2. What I see in the Bishop’s remarks is a bunch of high falutin’ words and psychobabble used as cover that boils down to one idea: same sex acts are not unnatural, not disoriented, and not a sin. Therefore all Church teaching that says as much is archaic and must be eliminated. If sin were to be eliminated in the cause of gay equality in the Church, what other sins might be pushed as “OK” down the road? Where is that Fr, Corapi when you need him and his sledge hammer? (Just joking.)

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  3. I had a hard time getting through this rant but I was interested in this one sentence: “We get to live with the very real effects of a world that gives up its struggle against sin”. Can you elucidate what these effects are? I’m particularly interested in how it affects you if a couple go through IVF to have a child or choose to use contraception. I see children where I work who are not wanted and are not cared for and I wouldn’t wish that for anyone. Please no psychobabble on how we all have crosses to bear. A life of misery is a life of misery.

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  4. The Bishop says Gay sexual activity is seen not as one sin among others but as uniquely debased … The complex issues of sexual orientation and its discernment in the life of the individual are dismissed and ridiculed.

    But gay “sexual” activity isn’t sexual at all. There’s no male half and female half. They aggrandize sodomy by calling it sexual. Women shouldn’t put up with this language, especially from a Bishop.

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    1. You are absolutely right, Tamsin.

      I was at a conference where Raymond Cardinal Burke basically said this very thing! The conferences (three of them) were on the sacrament of Holy Matrimony (two years ago October). They were fantastic.

      Cdl. Burke said *any* activity with one’s… um, piecey-parts (my words, zing) – outside of the sacrament of Matrimony is *genital activity* – *not* “sexual activity”.

      Catechist Kev

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  5. BRAVO, BRAVO OMM! Keep up the good fight. We must help the alphabet people to do the same as the rest of us have to do, if we love and want to follow God, and that is CHASTITY. Not just the alphabet people but people who are prone to the sins of the flesh. Is this not what the Lady of Fatima told Lucia is one of the greatest sins?

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    1. Do you think Jesus would call them alphabet people? Is that an inside joke, except that it clearly shows your intolerance. Good for you for being chaste. It’s your choice. Please don’t impose your choice on anyone else. It’s up to them. Why do you care if they go to hell, except that you might find righteousness is kind of fun and it feels good to put others down if they have different choices. Too bad you don’t have other things to feel good about.

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      1. We’re prefer to call them Catholics and they prefer to assign themselves letters. We don’t really believe in the letters. Children of God should be good enough!

        Now, why do we care about people going to hell? Don’t you care if I go to heaven or hell? Wow! I’d hope you’d root for the former.

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      2. Teaching Tolerance,

        “Please don’t impose your choice on anyone else. It is up to them.” Okay, you are correct, it is “their choice.” I do not have any problem with it one way or the other. I do not want it in my home, but what you do in yours is your business. However….. why do they/you try to “impose their choice on us?”

        Such as the bathroom issue. There is no way I want a grown man going to the same bathroom that my 3 year old granddaughter goes into. I do not care what gender he relates to. If I related to a poor person does that mean I get to pay less taxes???? No! Try that one with the IRS. Yet, we are told all the time, we must “tolerate this in others.” No!!!! I do not have to “tolerate this in anyone” and that is “my” choice!

        Yet, I am not free to have a “choice” according to you or them. I must “tolerate.” No! According to your own statement, “It is up to them.” Well, according to me, it is up to me what I will or will not “tolerate.” So please do not “impose your choice” on me, and tell me “I must.”

        I have a brain, I can think for myself, and what I choose to tolerate or not to tolerate is no one elses business. You cannot have it both ways. If you and others are “free to believe in things” so are the rest of us. Just because it goes against your grain makes us no more wrong/right then you are.

        I am so tired of the hypocorsiy of these kind of statements. Each of us can have our own opinions and beliefs. All of us are free to do so. My opinion and belief is, I will make my own choices in life. Tolerate what I want to and not tolerate what I do not want to. That is up to me, not you! God Bless, SR

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          1. These people irritate the (fill in the blank) out of me. I do enjoy your post very much as I am very busy and do not have the time to keep up with a lot of this.

            I am going to look into this a little more. My brother said one time, “I lost respect for the Catholic Church regarding eating meat on Friday’s. Either you believe in something or you do not?” To this he does have a great point.

            What I love about our Church, “All sinners welcome.” I don’t care if you are gay, a zebra, or a monkey, come on in. But…. being that said, I feel we have to draw the line in trying to “force us” to tolerate something which has been taught by the Church that “it” is wrong.

            Either we believe in the teachings of the Church or we do not? I think this is a point many of the clergy are missing. I mean do not tell me to “hold to the teachings of the Church,” when you are not doing it yourselves? Make sense? I feel all of them have to be in agreement on said teachings, as to lead their flock.

            If I was a murderer the Church would welcome me, as they should. Now if I went out here and murdered someone daily, would they accept that? Tell me and others it is okay? When they get out here and start with one thing then they are going to have to be “all inclusive” in others. When it comes to sin, that cannot happen.

            I think they are opening a door on this, that needs to stay shut. Just my thoughts. God Bless, SR

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          2. OMM, I actually don’t judge you. I feel sorry for you. I have better things to do with my days than worry about what others are doing, unless they are actively hurting others. For example, by bullying others, killing others, etc. I don’t think a person deciding to have sex with someone out of marriage or of the same sex is actually hurting you. You are not God, so please don’t condemn that. Leave that up to the God that you believe in.

            SR, It’s fine for you to decide what you tolerate. That’s great. You have a choice. Just don’t ask others to feel the same way and deride those who don’t feel the same way as you.

            I still do find “alphabet” people offensive though. I think they would prefer to be called what they identify as and believe they are: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual, Queer. You probably prefer to be called Catholic rather than crazy which is how many people view those who are so religious they have no tolerance for others. I don’t think you are crazy, though. I think you have strong beliefs which is great for you, but don’t impose them on others. You are free to believe what you want, just don’t degrade others who have the same beliefs. The world will be a better place when we accept those who are different.

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          3. TT, I see where back to the same old debate. I do not judge souls. I judge actions JUST LIKE YOU. You just draw lines in different places. For the newbies…

            Let’s go over some scenarios. How do you feel about the guy who cheats on his wife? Is he peachy? I give you enough credit to think that you’d have a moral issue with that even if it doesn’t effect your life. Are you condemning them to hell? Of course not. You are making a judgment about the action.

            How do you feel about the guy watching porn? Again, I’m giving you credit that you might find it a little disgusting. It may not affect you but study after study shows it teaches men to objectify women which hurts society.

            Sin simply affects society. There’s no escaping it. Think of it as the moral butterfly effect.

            As far as the “alphabet soup” goes…Google. You’ll find it used on many SSA sites. That’s actually where I first saw it.

            Lastly, I have to point out that you are not accepting of our beliefs. And this is where the hypocrisy comes in. I have no problem I saying I disagree with many of your beliefs but still love you. You, however, say that’s wrong. Isn’t that intolerant?

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          4. It’s biological reality when someone identifies as other than male/female or by traditional sexual roles. I’m sorry you can’t deal with that. It has existed throughout human time and in the animal kingdom. Then again, you probably don’t believe in evolution so there is no point in discussing this.

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  6. First of all, I want to apologize to OMM. A few weeks ago, I commented on this blog that I felt that too much attention in Catholic social media was being paid to Fr Jim Martin and his unfortunate ideas. I realize now that I was wrong. It’s become obvious that Fr Martin and what he represents within the American Catholic Church is very serious and needs to be addressed… and vigorously opposed. To have the bishop of one of America’s largest cities like McElroy put out an article like this is deeply troubling. For McElroy to declare that chastity is essentially overrated and inconsequential is frankly shocking. Now, of course, we know there have been many bishops in the past who have conducted their personal lives in an unchaste manner, but I can’t recall any of them ever publicly using their position to advance the position like ‘chastity… no big deal.’ And that’s what McElroy has done here. For decades (centuries?), Catholics have resisted as evangelical protestants have accused our Church of rejecting Bible-based teachings in favor of simply following the dictates of our hierarchy. The Catholic response has always been, ‘No, protestant friends, our Catholic doctrine–what our hierarchy teaches– is consistent with the Bible (which we compiled, by the way) and with Christian tradition from the very first centuries.’ Now, though, we find ourselves in a position where we have a bishop like McElroy plainly contradicting the teachings of St Paul (1 Corinthians 6:9). The truth is that if we as Catholics follow McElroy down this path, then the protestants were right about us.

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    1. Exactly, Marcus. Sadly Bp McElroy and Fr. Martin are trying to silence the faithful by painting us as great big meanies. It’s a common tactic among liberals. I gladly own it when they call us judgmental! I judge actions all the time and everyone should!

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        1. Here’s the thing. I don’t really care who judges me. If I did, I wouldn’t do most of the things I should do in life. I’m a little more worried about my final judgement by God which is sure to be brutal. I do, however, care about people leading souls astray because I want to see as many people living everlasting life with God as possible. Your aim is too short-sighted, TT.

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        2. TT,

          We are Catholics, do you really think we care if someone has “respect” for our beliefs or opinions? If “respect” for these things were our goal in life, there would not be one Catholic person on this planet, as we are “judged and condemned to hell daily” by somebody!

          What we do care about first and foremost is God. Then our Church and her teachings. Most of us feel we have to be faithful to all three. It is not about “respect” it is about faithfulness.

          Again, this is “our choice” so please “do not impose your choice” on us. God Bless, SR

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          1. Agreed. I won’t impose my choice on you, please stop commenting and judging other people’s choice if they don’t agree with you. Works for me.

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        3. Been reading through, rather amused by TT, but had to respond to TT’s latest one liner. It is absolutely nonsensical and meaningless if TT understood what being a Catholic entails. Did TT ever read “Blessed are you that persecute you for my sake?” Excuse me if I err slightly; recalling from memory. In other words, the only judge Catholics should care about is the God of Judgment Day. Bashing Catholics for following the teachings and morals of the Church is a sign that God will bless those that suffer from the bashing. So, OMM and others should feel good that being bashed for their Faith is noted by God. They should care very little what TT and other humans think.

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  7. TT,

    You think I give a flying, flipping hoot if anyone agrees with me or not??? I never try and make anyone else agree with me. You are such a contradiction in terms, and what is sad to me is “I feel so sorry for you,” because you do not realize this about yourself. Don’t tell me what I can and cannot do! You preach to everyone else, “don’t do this or that” and then turn around and do it yourself.

    At least have the courage to see the contradictions in what you say. The rest of us see it. I know exactly who I am, what I believe, and how I put it out there. Those of us who cannot face the truth about our words and actions, are only lying to ourselves. That is what is “sad” about you, to me.

    I mean at least take a look at what you say and then what you do, and see the two are not mixing.

    I am done with your speak one thing and do another attitude. It does not take rocket science to see this in what you write. Gees!!! God Bless, SR

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  8. This is not about me. This is about all the people that you hurt by not accepting their choice in life. While their choice may not agree with your beliefs, it does agree with theirs. Just accept them and tolerate them. It doesn’t mean that you agree with them. It just means that you won’t try to make them change. Not everyone believes in your God. They have their own. There are many faiths whose believers are as fervent as yours. It’s only when we try to impose our faith on others that we get into trouble.

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    1. LOL! TT!!!!!!! You don’t accept my choice in life to most closely follow the teachings of the Catholic Church as I can possibly muster. If I believe that’s the path to heaven, why in heaven’s name wouldn’t I want you and anyone else on that path?????

      As far as many religions go, they are a lie. There is only one Truth. If there were not, there would be no Truth at all. It’s not arbitrary. It’s reality.

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      1. You can follow the teachings that you believe all you want. I’m just asking you not to judge others who do not believe as you do but read something different into the church’s teachings. The Bible is interpreted in different ways. Your way is one, but there are others who believe their way is also correct. Since the Bible was created by man, I think there is room for interpretation.

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      2. Sorry, but you are wrong as are those who believe their religion is the only one. Religion exists to give people a sense of why they are here and how the world lives. Clearly, in different parts of the world, different religions were created. Yours is no more or no less than anyone else’s. Unfortunately, this lack of acceptance of others’ beliefs is what causes war. I accept your beliefs. Please accept mine and everyone else’s. Unless you can prove that your belief is the only one, which you can’t, then give it a rest.

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    2. I tell you what TT, “TOLERATE ME” and then this discussion will be over. “JUST ACCEPT ME.” “DON’T TRY TO MAKE ME CHANGE MY BELIEFS NOR THE WAY I DO THINGS, BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN WE GET IN TROUBLE.” Anything you come at against me, I can take your same exact words and turn them towards you. Again, that is what you do not see about yourself. That is what, you, yourself, DO NOT tolerate.

      Your line says “Teach Tolerance.” Number 1 I do not want to tolerate the things you do. Number 2 If you teach it, you ought to be able to live it for everybody. Number 3 How about those all of you “tolerant” people hurt? Number 4 It is about you and what you feel you want to impose on everybody else. Number 5 I do not have the right to teach anyone “tolerance” for anything, and to assume I do, is making myself a god over their thoughts, beliefs, and lives. Number 6 Though not popular, I am a free thinker, and can think for myself. Number 7 If you do not agree with what is said here, then just hush, go about your way, and live in your tolerance. Number 8 God is not ‘MY” God He is the living God of us all. Number 9 He loves us all, but does not “tolerate” evil. Number 10 I have never pushed Him on anyone in my whole life, as God cannot be “pushed.” Number 11 However I will defend my belief in Him and my right to do so. Number 12 If you or anyone do not want to believe in Him, that is between yourselves and Him.

      The day I give to you the right to “impose yourself on me” is the day of NEVER. It is the 8th day in the week, in case you missed it.

      Like I said, “Just tolerate me and go on, and do not “deride me because I believe different then you.” It is just one contradiction after another with you and I am sorry, I do not have “tolerance” for that. Have a great day and God Bless, SR

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        1. TT, is typical in the area I live. In fact, I have many friends in similar situations. Discussion and debate is never a bad thing. This is a big part of what is wrong with Martin. He doesn’t want a discussion. In fact he’s terrified of it. The hard questions are a bit too hard. At least TT is willing to engage even if it’s a never-ending circle with the same accusations which ends with me asking a very pointed questions which she will ignore.

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  9. @raymond, what was the point of your comment? Was it to embarrass me? Was it to belittle me? I just feel the need to stop the pity party you all have going on. I’m appalled that there are people still on this earth who can not be accepting of others. I actually feel sorry for you. I can’t imagine living a life where I’m so disturbed by someone else’s choice, when it in no way impacts my life. Unnecessary stress.

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    1. TT, if I, personally, wasn’t accepting of people who didn’t agree with me, I would have banned more than a few people. That said, I’m not going to say “Go, girl/guy!” to someone who I believe is causing harm to themselves and society just to be considered tolerant. I am not tolerant of that.. And pity party? Fr. Martin is living in a non-stop pity party. I don’t pity myself. I pity those being led astray by him. I pity the harm done to my Church. You want to pity us? It’s your prerogative but, after 3 years, you’d think that you’d get it by now that we are not going to stop because people try to silence us by calling us mean.

      This is about being Catholic. Fr. Martin, as a priest of the Catholic Church, should be encouraging people to embrace the teachings of the Church and the struggle that goes along with it. He should not be giving people a false hope that doctrine will change for them so they don’t have to feel bad for their particular sin.

      And stress? Quite frankly, I’m at peace. It’s work that I wish I didn’t have but that’s usually the nature of work. I would think, working a suicide hotline (and thank you again for doing so) that you would understand that point of view. You’re just upset because we’re taking on things you find agreeable. We simply don’t.

      Liked by 1 person

  10. Hey, Raymond. Why aren’t you working to protect all the women who are sexually assaulted every day and trafficked? Why do care if two people have sex in a loving consensual relationship. I bet the women and children who are raped every day would appreciate your help. Where is the outrage from all of you?

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    1. Uhhhhh, many of us are at abortion clinic many day offering help to women who are assaulted and their assailants are trying to cover up their crimes by killiing their children and destroying the “evidence” of their crime so don’t go there, TT. http://www.lifenews.com/2013/03/11/abortion-and-sex-trafficking-loving-the-unwanted-women-children/
      http://www.lifenews.com/2017/09/22/14-year-old-sex-trafficking-victim-was-forced-to-have-sex-thousands-of-times-and-multiple-abortions/

      Why aren’t YOU trying to help women born and unborn with sex trafficking.? Your idea to abort the innocent child only perpetuates the crime. I am outraged you are ready and willing to aid and abet rapists and human
      traffickers because you are an ideologue! Sorry for the harshness but if you want to accuse undercover pro-lifers of of “fake videos” when they have shown the aiding and abetting of human traffickers, that’s simply what you are.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. TT,

      Einstein said, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.” Pretty much says it all, doesn’t it? You are not going to achieve a different result, no matter how hard you try and how many times you say it. God Bless, SR

      Like

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